I don’t claim to have much of a green thumb…
But I can grow a mean patch of pumpkins.
Okay… Okay. Pumpkins are pretty easy to grow, so don’t be too impressed…But still… I’m going to take full advantage of my bragging rights.
This year I poked a handful of heirloom pumpkin seeds into my hugelkultur bed, just to see what would happen. (If you’re wondering “hugel-whaaaa??” then read this post). Last year, my maiden voyage as a hugelkultur gardener was a complete and total flop. But being the stubborn homesteader that I am, I decided to give it another try–after applying a generous amount old manure, of course. (Because manure fixes everything).
Apparently, the seeds loved the whole hugulkultur-thang, and they thrived. I ended up with around a dozen happy pumpkins from just a small corner of my garden.
I saved a couple of the littlest pumpkins to adorn my dining room table (because they are so cuuuuuuuute) and set to work preserving the rest. In years past, I’ve baked my pumpkins (using my finger-saving, no fuss method), blended them, and crammed the puree into gallon-sized freezer bags. But honestly? I was dreading the process this year…
I don’t like the whole freeze-the-pumpkin-in-a-baggie method because:
a) It’s messy to put in the pumpkin puree into the bag, and wastes a lot of pumpkin when you are trying to remove it.
b) It takes up valuable freezer space.
c) I am the WORST about remembering to thaw stuff before I need it, so having jars ready at a moment’s notice makes me super-duper happy. (This is the same reason I can my beef broth instead of freezing it...)
Therefore, you can imagine my homesteader-delight when I realize you can indeed can pumpkin. There are just a few rules you need to follow first:
The Rules of Canning Pumpkin
1) If you are going to can pumpkin, you must, must, must use a pressure canner--no exceptions. I know, pressure canning seems scarier than water bath canning, but it’s absolutely vital since pumpkin is a low-acid food. And if you follow my pressure canning tutorial, it’s easy peasy. (No explosions, either.)
2) It’s a bummer, but you cannot can pumpkin puree–you can only can pumpkin cubes (Holy wow… there’s a lot of “cans” in that sentence). According to the National Center for Home Food Preservation, “We have no properly researched directions to recommend for canning mashed or pureed pumpkin or winter squash, or pumpkin butter.” So yeah, that’s one area where I don’t live on the edge. The same goes for canning refried beans, which is why I just can whole beans and then mash ’em after I open the jars.
So do you promise you’ll follow the rules? Okay, then I’ll share the recipe. 🙂
Canning Pumpkin the Easy Way
(this post contains affiliate links)
You will need:
- Pie pumpkins
- Water
- A pressure canner (where to buy)
- Jars – (get them from your local store, or get them online here) (Try my favorite lids for canning, learn more about FOR JARS lids here: http://theprairiehomestead.com/forjars (use code PURPOSE10 for 10% off))
- My pressure canning tutorial
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First Objective: We need to cut the pumpkins into cubes. This is the “hardest” part of this whole process, mainly because you can’t use my quick tip for making pumpkin puree (because we need the pumpkin to remain raw and not get too soft). But never fear–it’s still do-able. Here’s how I did it:
Cut the stem out like you are getting ready to carve a jack-o-lantern.
Cut the pumpkin into four or five wedges.
Use a spoon to scrape out the pumpkin guts.
Peel the pumpkin. I was very thankful my vegetable peeler worked for this. However, if you are dealing with pumpkins with a super-hard rind, you might need a sharp knife to remove the peel instead. Watch those fingers!
Cut the peeled pumpkin into (roughly) 1-inch cubes.
Place the cubes in a large pot and cover with water.
Boil for 2 minutes, then place the pumpkin cubes into hot jars. (Avoid smashing down the cubes as much as possible!)
Cover the pumpkin cubes with the leftover hot cooking liquid, leaving 1-inch of headspace.
Add lids and rings and place into your pressure canner. Process quart jars for 90 minutes at 15 pounds pressure. Process pint jars for 55 minutes at 15 pounds pressure.
(Need more details about pressure canning? I’ve got ya covered!)
When you are ready to make pumpkin puree, simply open a jar, strain out the liquid, and mash! I found one jar of drained, mashed pumpkin gave me around 2-3 cups of puree.
I see a lot of pumpkin pies in my future…
Kitchen Notes:
- The purpose behind boiling the pumpkin cubes for two minutes is to merely heat the cubes, not entirely cook them.
- Be really careful that you aren’t accidentally smashing the cubes too much as you fill your jars. (A little squishing is ok, we just don’t want the entire jar to end up being puree)
- Avoid using carving pumpkins–the flavor and texture just aren’t the same as a good, old-fashioned pie pumpkin.
- I’ve been growing these Winter Luxury Heirloom Pie Pumpkins for several years now. They are my absolute favorite!
- Need some fabulous pumpkin pie spice? Make it yourself!
- Or, use your freshly canned puree for the ultimate pumpkin pie smoothie or honey maple pumpkin bread.
Canning Pumpkin – The Easy Way
Ingredients
- Pie pumpkins
- Water
- A pressure canner
- Mason Jars
Instructions
- We need to cut the pumpkins into cubes. First, cut the stem out like you are getting ready to carve a jack-o-lantern. Then cut the pumpkin into four or five wedges. Use a spoon to scrape out the pumpkin guts.Peel the pumpkin. I was very thankful my vegetable peeler worked for this. However, if you are dealing with pumpkins with a super-hard rind, you might need a sharp knife to remove the peel instead. Watch those fingers! Cut the peeled pumpkin into (roughly) 1-inch cubes.
- Place the cubes in a large pot and cover with water.
- Boil for 2 minutes, then place the pumpkin cubes into hot jars. (Avoid smashing down the cubes as much as possible!)
- Cover the pumpkin cubes with the leftover hot cooking liquid, leaving 1-inch of headspace.
- Add lids and rings and place into your pressure canner. Process quart jars for 90 minutes at 15 pounds pressure. Process pint jars for 55 minutes at 15 pounds pressure.
Notes
When you are ready to make pumpkin puree, simply open a jar, strain out the liquid, and mash! I found one jar of drained, mashed pumpkin gave me around 2-3 cups of puree.
More Canning Recipes:
- Canning Peaches with Honey and Cinnamon
- Canning Meat: A Tutorial
- Canning Peppers: A Tutorial
- Canning Secrets Revealed: Learn How to Can Food
This is great. – I was always told you couldn’t can pumpkins so I always opted to freeze it. i agree the puree is a mess and dealing with it when it’s hot isn’t always a joy either. Glad you had success in your garden. I have a direct composting tip that might help you in your garden. Stop by my blog when you get a chance.
Carole @ Garden Up green
Carole said, “I was always told you couldn’t can pumpkins so I always opted to freeze it.” Every grocery store in America has pumpkin in a can… up until Thanksgiving anyway.
I’ve been canning in court and point jars for over 50 years pumpkin puree and blossom squash puree. Never have had a problem with it if you can find tan pumpkin or squash in the store it can be canned and it will last 3 to 5 years and sometimes longer depending on where you keep it in your house or fruit seller
Author state that he gets about 2 cups of mashed pumpkin from a jar. He forgets to mention whether it is a pint or quart jar. I imagine it was from a quart jar
I just found this website and when I read the “don’ts” I was floored. We’ve cooked and bottled pumpkin puree for years. It is the fruit of the vine so we’ve processed in water bath in my Mom’s day and I used my steam canners!
My research is to find out if anyone has taken the frozen pumpkins and cooked them down and processed?
How long do you can ar 10 lbs of pressure? I’m at a low altitude.
Jill I live at around 5300’ above sea level. I know you also live “at altitude”. Is the time and pressure in this recipe already adjusted for altitude or do I need to process longer?
By the way i can pumpkin puree all the time. Easy as pie and its safe.
I have never canned anything…. I watched my mom when we were kids but… I do wish i would have paid attention!! Canning itself scares me a lot.. pressure cooker????
In these times im trying to grow and prepare all our food… None of the store bought crap! Fresh produce, frozen Home grown Beef, and chicken, eggs, i am having a hard time with milk… Our cows are Beef not Dairy to old to milk a cow .. guess trying to find a dairy that sells whole milk!!
Wow, I wish I had known you can’t can pumpkin puree after I already did it several years ago. Naturally it wasn’t as thick as what you buy, but it did make way better pies. Rats! Now we will probably get sick. 🙂
All joking aside, what I did was bake the pumpkins until the flesh was soft enough to scrape out, then mash through a sieve like applesauce (or maybe I used the Victorio strainer, I can’t remember). Then packed it into jars and pressure cooked it according to my ancient preserving book. For the record, it was written before hot pack tomatoes (not processed at all) were ever water-bathed.
Yeah… it’s one of those things suggested by the canning “authorities,” so it’s probably a good idea to follow. However, in know in decades past, people broke a lot of the “rules” and ended up being OK. 😉
I have always canned puréed pumpkin. My grandma did it and she lived until she was 98. She did, however, baked the pumpkin halves on a cookie sheet until the pumpkin skin was brown and separated from the pumpkin flesh. She took it out, puréed it and pressure canned it at 10 pounds of pressure for 130 minutes with pints and 10 pounds of pressure for 220 minutes with quarts. It looks like Libby’s pumpkin and smells like it too. As always, after the lid is popped, I smell the food for any off smells. If there is, I throw it away. I was just told on FB if I don’t get a canning book every year, study it and worship Ball, then I am not allowed to have my opinion. Like I said, my grandma did pumpkin that way for years, and a certain person on FB insulted her, my family and my culture as we are German Lutheran. BTW, my gma was the Home Ec advisor for Texas County Fair for over 50 years and she wrote the canning book for the OK panhandle for years.
Yes, I know there are plenty of people who have never followed Ball Blue Book recommendations and were just fine. Once I talked to an old timer who had a Great Depression-era mother who canned raw meat with a water bath canner and wax seals– they never got sick. However, since I have a public resource here, you’ll always hear my recommendations be fairly conservative and follow the commonly-accepted safety rules.
Just to clarify is the quart time really 220 minutes at 10 lbs.
Join Canning Rebels thru FB…… They are awesome!!!
That is awesome ! I would like to hear more about your grandmothers canning methods.
Thanks for your grams technique. Glad you don’t listen to the fools.
I actually found a recipe this year for canned Pumpkin Butter. After you puree your pumpkin it requires that once all ingredients are added to cooked it to boiling for 30 minutes. Put hot pumpkin in hot jars and process for 30 minutes at 10 pounds of pressure. So far so good. I hope it stays good. I have just always been curious, why is it that we are told that we can’t can pureed pumpkin?
The concern is that the puree is so thick that not enough heat will reach the center, and something that could make you sick would survive the canning process.
That said, one of my grandmothers used to water bath can all her vegetables – she had 8 kids, a huge garden, and put up a cellar full of food every year.
Also, I didn’t know it until recently, but my mom used to can her stewed tomatoes by filling the jars with hot tomatoes, and then just putting on the rings and lids, inverting the jars onto an old towel, and swaddling them with more towels. When they cooled, any that hadn’t sealed (very uncommon) went into the refrigerator for immediate use.
Personally, I tend to follow the newer recommendations, mostly.
Can we can butternut squash & sweetmeat squash like this?
Seems it has to do with heating all the way through for a long enough time.
A couple things to note here.
1. If you pressure cook it long enough you are able to safely can pumpkin puree. How long that time is seems to be unknown due to the varying densities of the puree. Your grandmothers time was very long so I “assume” it would be safe but who knows.
2. The deadly toxin is botulism. It has no smell or taste so you will not know it is there. Lets assume that if you have pressure canned it the internal temperature hit a minimum of 212F / 100C so the mold and other bacteria should be killed off leaving it smell, taste and look fine after storage although botulism did grow and contaminate the product.
The interesting part is that although botulism spores are very heat resistant and hard to kill the botulism neural toxin (the deadly part) that grows during storage if the spores are not killed is very susceptible to heat and is actually rendered safe to consume after heating for a short time 176F / 80C. So, when you cook your pie even if you where to have botulism infested puree the cooking process of the pie would destroy the toxin and no one would get sick unless they ate the filling raw.
3. In short, follow the rules but if you choose not too follow the rules just cook/heat your food above 176F / 80C for 5 to 10 minutes to deactivate the botulism toxins.
15lbs pressure sounds high to me but then again I’ve never canned pumpkin before. I’m at sea level. 15lbs pressure?
Hi please please please could you amend your recipe to state the pressure needs to be different for different altitudes. I’m fairly new to canning so didn’t even think about it and followed this recipe. I’m at sea level and I’ve blown my pressure canner. I have to import from the US so that’s £160 to replace it ?? please change it so someone else doesn’t make that mistake. ?
Would you mind passing the recipe on?
A lot of people don’t follow the “rules” and are OK, but what about those who weren’t? If I were the only one to eat it I might consider trying it, but there’s no way I’m going to risk feeding it to my kids or neighbors even if it’s a small risk (in 2015, somebody made potato salad from improperly canned potatoes and took it to a church potluck…)
I’m sure five out of six people think Russian Roulette is safe too.
I remember that, Pam. Lancaster, OH. I felt so bad for everybody involved! Can you imagine having to go the rest of your life knowing you killed someone by one caning goof? I’d love to can pureed pumpkin, but I’m still just scared enough to stick with cubes. Part of me says, “Your great grandma did it all her life!” the other half says, “But I’m only a third year canner; what if…..?” So until I get more experience under my belt, I have to go cubed. 🙁
Well thank you for your comment. As I read this how to can pumpkin tutorial I was thinking to myself, why does the old canning book i have tell me to can it pureed? And yes..the stores sell pureed pumpkin so of course its canable. Just not recomended in this generation apparantly..
Hello. Can I possibly get the ancient recipe from you, Beth? Would greatly appreciate. Carrie
Each year, I grow a bunch of pumpkins, but I haven’t grown pie pumpkins. You’ve inspired me to put them into next year’s garden plans. I gave up on canning several years ago because 1) There’s only the two of us (me and hubs), 2) I can’t seem to recruit anyone to help me – it’s a lot of work doing it solo!, and 3) I only had a galley kitchen that was too cramped to work in. Now I have plenty of space, so I should give it a go again.
Thanks, Jill, for sharing how you can the pumpkin. I’ll keep this bookmarked.
I think you’ll love pie pumpkins Cynthia! Happy canning!
I buy canned pumpkin all the time…there’s obviously a way. So how do the companies that can pumpkin puree do it? What’s the problem with home-canners doing it? Is it supposed to be too dense to get properly processed in the center? Or what??
Yes– supposedly the thick purees are too dense for a home canner. I imagine that commercial canners have equipment that allows them to can things at a much higher temp.
YIPPEEE SKIPPPEEEEE!!! Yes I am excited. I knew I need to peel/cube the squash but trying to figure an easy way proved difficult. I asked my friends everyone said cook it in the crockpot,microwave, oven but I knew it couldnt be cooked! This looks easy and we have a floor full of butternut. Thanks!
Awesome– butternut should can beautifully!
I knew that our homestead sisters in Times past would never let these tasty beauties go to waste !
Thank you for bringing this possibity back to life and save that blessed harvest ladies!
Meant to say possibility….geez..lol
I grew a winter luxury pumpkin too, but I only got one pumpkin this year so I am using it at Thanksgiving. The rest of my piles and piles of squash though, prepare for canning!
Hayley
https://ElizabethsForrest.blogspot.com
Hurray … another way to keep pumpkin other than the freezer. My chest freezer is months away and my freezer is always overflowing but I always can find “space” for cans! I’m guessing this would work for butternut squash too? Thank you for all the info you share for this city girl who feels at home on a farm.
Yes, this should definitely work for butternut! 🙂
Canning pumpkins works well, but I am also hoping that i can can spaghetti squash. Has anyone tried this?
I was wondering… for the quart size, after you open a can and mash the cubes, how much puree do you end up with? Most recipes I’ve got call for around 2 cups, so if a quart makes much more than that, I’ll need to reconsider what I’m trying to bake.
I was wondering about this too since she says an open jar makes 2-3 cups of pumpkin purée. But she doesn’t say what size of jar she opened: quart or pint. I am assuming it was a quart jar.
Did you find out if it was a quart jar for 2-3 cups?
2 cups = 1 pint or 1/2 quart. No way you’re getting even 2 full cups puree solid from a pint jar of cubes. Had to be quarts.
Can I just say, those pumpkins are beautiful! Thank you so much for this article!! I’m learning to can and pumpkins are my most favorite food ever! I want to get the hang of this and try making pumpkin soup! ? Thank you again!! ?
Oh yes, pumpkin soup is one of my favs. Enjoy!
I have for years canned pumpkin puree and we have never gotten sick.
Thanks so much for your very interesting blog. I’m quite new to your site, but am always excited when I see your posts in my email. Extremely interesting and helpful. Thank you for taking the time to do what you do. Now I want to start saving up for a freeze dryer!
I’ve canned pumpkin as you have described, but decided I like freezing it better. After pureeing I measure cupfulls into those Texas-sized muffin pans. After these are frozen I place them in ziplock freezer bags. Voila, ready to use in recipes as most call for 1 or 2 cups of purée.
Yep– frozen pumpkin is awesome too!
Today I canned sweet potatoes the same way!!! We will have sweet potato pie for the holidays!!!
Awesome idea!
Thank you for sharing that idea.
Have you ever had a pressure canned cubed pumpkin continue to bubble hours after removed from natural released pressure canner? After pressure canner cooled down and the button could be pushed down with no pressure on it. I took of the lid and within 5 minutes removed quarts, they were still bubbling but not overflowing or anything, water was clean, I removed them and they sealed within 30 minutes but are still bubbling hours later?????? Do you know If they are ok??
Thank you
How long will the canned pumpkin last? Doing some for the first time just wondering when its shelf life limit would be. Thanks in advance.
As long as it seals properly, it can last for years!
Thank you so much for this post. For the first time our garden ran over with beautiful pumpkins. After several pumpkin pies, cookies, and oatmeal, what to do with the rest? Use up valuable freezer space? No. Pressure canning for us. We just put up 30 pints and counting. I see lots of yummy pumpkin dishes throughout the year.
Way to go Julie!
Can I use this method of canning pumpkins for Butternut Squash as well?
I’m so excited to try this, too. I have two freezers that are jam packed with meat & have no room for my garden veggies. Thanks so much. Ps. Just canned chicken packed in it’s own broth. First time I’ve tried that…fingers crossed…sometimes I don’t like the flavor canning imparts.
Just wondering at what elevation you are at…making this right now but my pressure canner says 10 lbs for 80 min we are under 1000 ft
I know this is a few years ago but please do it at 10. I followed the recipe to the letter as I’m new to pressure canning and just blew my canner ??? absolutely gutted. Didn’t even manage to can the pumpkin as although it has all sealed they were only in for an hour. ?
There’s no reason 90 minutes at 15psi would damage a properly functioning pressure cooker. I’ve used this recipe several times. If your cooker suffered damage, something was amiss. Modern cookers like All-American have a safety plug that will blow before catastrophic damage occurs.
I can at that all the time because of altitude
I am just starting out canning with pressure cooker. Made spaghetti sauce and now want to actually make pumpkin pie filling, but all the research says not to puree. However, with that said the cubes will work, but what about adding the spices to the pumpkins before pressure canning? Is this something that you or someone you know has done before? I realize that you have to drain the water out of the jar prior to pureeing, but thinking it would add flavor to pumpkins? What are your thoughts? Also, when making a pumpkin pie I have read that it is thinner once pureed, do you add something to the puree to thicken it? Thank you for your insight and look forward to canning!
I wouldn’t add spices to the pumpkins when canning them. It limits what you can do with them when you open them. I prefer to flavor things like this as I am making the final product that will go on the table, because adjusting the spices then gives better control over the final taste.
Can you use this method for any type squash? Like butternut, spaghetti, meat and other types I can’t remember the names to?
Any type of squash, and similarly structured cooking “vegetables,” like sweet potatoes. This works for carrots, turnips, rutabaga, potatoes, burdock root, and giant radishes.
I have cooked , mashed and canned pumpkins for years and had no problem ,everyone is still alive . The only thing I have a problem with is getting them peeled , I find it really hard ending up with blisters on my fingers . I have hot bathed the pumpkins first a little easier but still find them hard to cut and peel them. Any easier hints out there ?
Like others I baked my pumpkin, then canned. Past 4o years used this method. Cooled and put in jars in chunks. Did not waste purée time because used blender to make pie. One pint made a 9″ pie.
Do you have to use pie pumpkins? I just picked some smaller pumpkins up at a local farmers stand and was going to use them.
From my research I believe all pumpkins are typically the same.
Ok, gonna give it a try. I am new to pressure canning. So far have only canned meats. But since the occasion arose for pumpkins, I am gonna try it cubed. However, I have read the pressure is determined by your sea level. I only need 11 lbs, but since you said 15, I’m gonna do a little more pressure than usual. I would try the puree but not into the extra work right now. I am going to time it for 90 minutes as I have read for vegetables. You have opened my eyes with different things that can be processed. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
I bake mine and let them cool completely. The skins peel right off.
My grandmas didn’t ever can pumpkin unfortunately. They canned everything else though. Living through the depression made “Waste not- Want not” words to live by.
I canned a bunch of pumpkin chunks last fall and some of the pumpkin has spots on them. Is that normal?
I’ll use any pumpkin or large squash like a hubbard, flavor may be a little different, but I still enjoy the taste. On a dare, I even made pumpkin pie from the little ornament pumpkins. Turned out great, though it was a bit of a labor peeling and cleaning the little things.
Nice! So the ornamental pumpkins still had good flavor?
I make my own paste for pies or breads just like I do jams. We are all ok. I process many things and put them in jars, boiling jars, lids and rings. MAKE SURE you use very sterilized dish rags too and if you are not sure they are germfree, just dip the rag end in a pot of boiling water and let it stand for a few minutes, it will cool down enough to handle and wipe the jar top very clean before you put on the very hot lid with the tongs. I usually have to throw away one or two jars a year and I can about 200 jars of various fruits, veggies, soups, pie fillings, jams and meat sauces. I have never used a pressure cooker and I am 77 and have been canning for at least 50 years.
On the subject of using ‘can’ a lot in a sentence…
One summer my husband’s grandparent’s freezer broke. They ended up with all this stuff in the yard, and one of the neighbors commented on it, “What are you going to do with all this food?”
Grandpa quipped with this little gem, “We’ll eat what we can, and what we can’t we can.”
Hi Jill,
I had several pumpkins to can a couple of years ago. But I wanted to make pumpkin butter. Everything I read said you can not can pumpkin. Well I stumbled onto a recipe for pumpkin butter. I made it, and it was so wonderful. You have to boil the pumpkin after you add all your spices for 30 mins then add to jars. I think I processed in the pressure cooker for 25 minutes. But I still have some jars today and it is still good.
Hi Jill, just turned off the stove from pressure canning 3 huge butternut squash that got a touch of frost so we knew they wouldn’t keep on the shelf. Had your directions printed out but as it was coming up to pressure I got nervous about the 15 PSI. I have only pressure canned beans in the past which is at 10 PSI and 15 seemed high. I did a quick search and found other sources were recommending 10. So I compromised and kept is about 12 for the 90 minutes. Wondering where you read the 15 and what your thoughts would be? Thank you!!!
In 2017 I grew two types of pie pumpkins, Winter Luxury Pie and a sweet pie. At Thanksgiving we made one pie of each pumpkin type, then served a small wedge of each (1/16th). Our guests preferred the flavor of Winter Luxury Pie Pumpkin..so now that is the only one we grow.
This year we cut back on how much we planted but still have 30 plus pumpkins waiting, our local food pantry willingly accepts produce, especially when one shares recipes.
I discovered the processing change a few years back. Having gone through the ‘mess’ of freezing in plastic bags, I am switching to canning cubes in quarts.
How about drying pumpkin & powdering it & re-hydrating into pureed pumpkin for pies etc.? I have not tried as I can not grow them this far north except in a greenhouse. But I occasionally get a jack-o-lantern pumpkin, but not in enough abundance to make a caner load.
I personally haven’t tried this, but I’m sure it can be done! Give it a shot and see how it comes out!
I have a question….. you said 1 jar gave you 2-3 cups of puree. What size jar are you talking about?
Or…… how much puree can you get from a pint jar?
Wondering why 15 pounds of pressure is recommended? I do squash at 10 pounds pressure. I did the 15 pounds pressure, but my canner didn’t jiggle (although it sputtered and I could hear the contents boiling. I am hoping it is okay. I definitely cooked it long enough! Just wondered about the pressure. Thanks for all you do and all you share. It is invaluable to me!
I believe at sea level the pressure is lower, I do 15 pounds where I live and we are at 4700 ft.
I’m excited to can pumpkin since we’re out of freezer space. And I, like you, don’t always think to thaw out frozen purée ahead of time. Another use for pumpkin, purée it and add a cup of pumpkin to your favorite chili recipe. It makes it nice and thick and it’s extra nutrients. No one knows it’s there unless you tell them